swim mom

Hi! I am new to the forum. I have a 14 year old daughter who has been swimming competitively for 8 years. She swam doubles in the summer, but does not during the school year except during Christmas break (currently she swims 6 days a week, avg. 6,000 to 7,500 yards, I think). She is a very hard worker who pushes herself at practice. I should also mention that she is 5' 4", 108 lbs, and while she is in puberty, she is pre-menarchal. So, she is smaller and less physically mature than most girls in her practice group (14-18 year olds).

For the past two seasons, summer long course and current short course, she has had a similar problem. She has trained very successfully for most of the season, gone to a big, three-day prelim/final meet where she swam very well, and crashed afterwards. Both times she had a washout swim the day after the meet but no total rest days at all. In the summer the coach she had was not sympathetic and did not listen when she insisted that she felt bad in the water and that something was wrong (to her that means feeling "heavy" and not "feeling her strokes," as opposed to general fatigue from having a hard workout). He did not reduce her training at all, and she subsequently went to state two weeks later and bombed it. However, that was the end of the season basically, we knew she was changing groups and coaches, and had three weeks off, so nothing more was said or done about it.

She came back fine in short course, trained very well even through the heavier loads at Christmas, then crashed after the mid-Jan. meet. She felt bad in the water again, couldn't hold anywhere near the paces she had been, and her heart rate was higher than before on slower paces. Her current coach has more experience than the other and understands there is a problem. He kept her yards and intensity lower for 2-3 weeks, then they have picked back up for the last 2 weeks. She is feeling better in the water and her heart rate is back more in line with where the coach wants it after certain sets, but she is still nowhere near where she was pace-wise before the mid-Jan. meet. I feel badly for her because this inability to sustain a training season and reap the rewards at the championship meets is frustrating to her, and so I've spent hours researching on the computer and come up with nothing that specifically applies to her.

She has really focused on her nutrition this season, and she gets a fairly good amount of sleep for a teenager with a busy schedule (8 1/2 to 9 hours during school). She has also seen a pediatric endocrinologist to ensure that the level of swimming she is doing is not interfering with puberty, and he assured us that she is just a late bloomer and does not need to cut back. We have considered overtraining syndrome, but she does not exhibit any symptoms out of the water for that. She did grow 3/4 of an inch in two weeks at the end of Jan., and I imagine that contributed to the fatigue some. She also had mono two years ago.

Sorry for the long post - just wanted to get all the facts laid out. My questions are:

1. Could not getting enough recovery after a long, grueling meet really be enough to send her into this type of problem? Or is there an underlying issue that the stress of the meet is triggering? It seems to hit her just BOOM completely out of the air after the meet - no gradual decrease in performance.
2. Is there another type of specialist, such as a sports medicine doctor, that could advise us as to why she is having this problem or how to prevent it?
3. After 2-3 weeks of a decreased work load, is she now just not at the same level of shape/conditioning she was in before the crash? i.e. is she on the right track but just not built back up yet?
4. Any general help anyone can give about why this happened, how to prevent it, and how to fix it?

Thanks in advance to anyone who was willing to read through all that and offer any advice!

texasaggies

Swim mom- Wow, she's in quite a pickle. It truly does sound like there's some sort of underlying condition, as this kind of huge drop off after a meet (that takes weeks to recover from) is unusual, something I've never seen.

I'm not sure about exactly what type of doctor you should see, but I would definitely press the issue. Not sure if you're familiar with Mary Beck, but she ran into a lot of medical problems that apparently came from overtraining. Not sure the exact name of the condition, but it might be worth further research.

My first thought would've been diet. Have you guys consulted a resource for her nutrition? Sometimes, top-level athletes like that have different needs than the rest of us. Is she staying hydrated through the big weekend meets?

Beyond diet, I might look into a horomone problem. I assume she's had blood work done, to rule out the typical causes of fatigue (like anemia, and I won't mention the obvious, very serious conditions).

I wonder if she's sleeping well during the meets? All through my swimming and coaching days, at night after meets, I would have the worst time sleeping, with dreams of being on a pool deck in my bed, missing races, forgetting my suit, sleeping through warmups, etc. Or perhaps she's putting a ton of stress on herself during these big meets. She sounds pretty focused and driven, is there a chance that she internalizes all of the stress she's feeling?

A way to really nail down the causes (although it would be somewhat of a sacrifice, it might be worth it), would be to really scale back her 3-weeks-out meet in terms of events she swims, how much emphasis the coaches put on it, pressure to really dominate the competition.

I might really push for a second opinion from an endocrinologist. I think that with how fast doctors push people through certain clinics these days, sometimes they look to the simple answer, which in this case sounds like no answer at all. Although I have limited medical training (lots in my family are doctors, nurses etc.), as a coach, these issues, combined with her very slight build, would at least make me want to encourage the parent to dig deeper, and not just write it off.

Some people are uncomfortable with it (I am one of those people), but seeing a therapist (sports psychologist, etc.) can really help athletes sometimes. It may be even a burnout issue. The trigger may not be the intensity of the meet, rather how far into the season the meet is. Not sure what your definition of "competitive" is, but any kid who's swimming year-round from age 7-18 is going to hit a big mental wall at some point, especially if they've spent a lot of that time swimming 2-a-days in the summer.

Please follow up if you have any more questions or comments regarding what I said! As a coach, I'm always looking to build off of other peoples' experiences to try and recognize symptoms of these things sooner rather than later.

swim mom

Thanks for your response. I wanted to throw it out there and see if anyone else had experienced this, either personally or with a swimmer. I think for the most part we have addressed the points you mentioned, but it certainly bears a second look. My gut at this point is that it's possibly some kind of overtraining from a physical standpoint, maybe brought on by puberty, i.e. her body can't fight a war on two fronts. However, mentally she is very engaged and motivated - she went throught more of a mental burnout around 12-13 when her training was first stepped up, and even backed away from full-time training for a while, but is now 100% focused and motivated. It may be she is just pushing herself too much for the stage of development she is in (she doesn't do doubles during the school year, though). But it's hard to back off when you get results and you're a driven competitor! The meet in mid-Jan. right before her crash was literally the best one of her career - she swam AAAAs and AAAs in all but about one swim, out of about 15 (it was prelim/final). We will continue to investigate, though, to determine if there is an underlying problem, and at the least try to prevent it from occurring again. I mean, how long is a kid going to want to sacrifice the time to train when she can't make it through a season to the championships?

texasaggies

Wow, 15 swims over a weekend can be a LOT. Maybe that is the problem? It may be a simpler problem of just having such a huge weekend like that. Even college swimmers swim no more than 10 swims over the course of a Wed-Sat championship meet.

Anyways, if I were her coach, the first thing I'd try would be to cut down an event or two. I know she probably wants to win as many races and swim as many cuts as possible, but MAN that's a lot, especially if it's a 3-day meet (Friday-Sat-Sun?)

Do any of her teammates swim that many events, and do they have a similar reaction?

swim mom

I recounted, and she had 12 swims (4 events that were timed finals, and 4 that she swam prelim/finals) - but still a lot. She is a middle distance swimmer, so most of her events were 200s and 400/500. Some of her teammates swam the full load at the meet, but I think they were mostly the 11-12 year olds that had shorter distances. I don't think the 13 and ups had as many finals as she did.

But yes, I think you are right. She is getting to the age where she has to pick and choose, especially since she mainly does mid-distance. The timing of this "crash" is unfortunate, because the state meet is this weekend and age group sectionals in two weeks. What she and her coach decided to do this weekend was swim a few select events this weekend b/c it is her last 14&U state (but not enough to wipe her out), and focus more on sectionals. Over two days, she swam two prelims each day, nothing over 200 yards, and selected one final to swim each night (and three relays). While her endurance is probably not 100% since this was a very limited schedule, she still managed to get a real best time in finals, both 200s and AAAAs. It was a very encouraging sign for us. We are leaning toward it not being a serious medical problem, rather just a training/recovery issue to work out. I think the growth spurt/puberty she is going is probably a huge factor. I doubt she will be 100% at sectionals in two weeks, but maybe we can add in a few more events. Her coach has been responsive and concerned, has consulted other coaches about her, and I think will tailor her training/recovery as needed in the future.

Thanks for your concern and response! I agree - it is tempting to let them swim the max they are seeded well in, and some kids can do that - but we learned the hard way she is not one of those kids, at least right now!

Typhoons Coach

How "old school" are the coaches? In other words, how long have they been coaching and what is their background?

Also, what type of swimmer is your daughter? Fleet sprint (50 free and 100's), regular sprinter (100 and 200 free and strokes), mid distance (200 free and strokes, 200 IM, 400IM, 500), or distance? And what strokes does she swim?

The other question that I have before I give an opinion (and I do apologize for the questions, but there are things missing from the whole picture) is what are the sets that she is swimming? If she can give you an example of a set in practice that would be great.

swim mom

Thanks for responding. I guess you would say her coach is "old school." He has been coaching about 30 years. I know he is pretty up on what is going on in the swimming world, but I don't know if that extends to training schools of thought, etc.

My daughter is a mid-distance swimmer - fits your description to a T. She also has some success at 50 and 100 free b/c she is a good freestyler, but is not a true sprinter. Her best strokes/events, based on the time standards she has acheived, are IM and free (AAAA), followed closely by breast (less than a sec. from AAAA), then fly (AAA), then back (AA).

She swims a variety of sets at practice. They usually do at least one kick and one pull set each practice. Kick might be 10 100s (they rarely use fins), sometimes sprint, sometimes just make the interval. Pull might use any combination of pull buoy, paddles, ankle strap, snorkel, and might be 3 200s, first one use all equip., second one drop one thing, third one drop another. A typical main set might be a 100 on the 1:30, 200 on the 2:40, 300 on the 3:45 and 400 on the 4:40, 3 or 4 times through. I might not have those intervals right, but you see the pattern - the 100 base pace gets faster each distance. Another set might be 10 100s on the 1:20, holding a 500 goal pace per 100. Or 6 200s on the 3:00, descend 1-3 and 4-6, down to a certain time he gives her. Or they'll do 10 50s all-out fast on the 2:00. They do broken 200 and 400 IM fast a lot before meets. They train mostly freestyle, but sometimes he will have my daughter and a boy that is a true IM'er do IM when the others are doing free, and if they are doing stroke anything he usually tells her to do IM. Fairly often he gives her a certain pace he wants her to go or hold - it is not all just as fast as you can go. He also gets them to check their heart rate often after hard sets and after warming down, and wants it to be in a certain zone. That is the one thing that was alarming my daughter after the big meet in Jan. - for a few weeks after it, her heart rate was still higher holding a slower pace than before the meet. I hope those are enough examples. I can ask her for more details if necessary.

As I said in an answer to texasaggies above, she did well in the few events she swam this weekend, so she might be on the road to recovery, but I don't know what will happen when she tries to swim a heavier load at a meet. Mainly we want to figure out what to do so this doesn't keep happening. Any input you have would be greatly appreciated!

Typhoons Coach

Thank you so much for all the detail! It definitely helps!

So, after reading and re-reading (and then writing down everything in my individual coaching language), you are saying that the following is a typical practice:

Set 1 (1600 total)
10 x 100 kick w/no equip
3 x 200 pull w/various equip

Set 2 (among other examples) (50 minute set w/4000 total)
*4 rounds*
100 @ 1:30
200 @ 2:40
300 @ 3:45
400 @ 4:40
**

So, here is my synopsis, (1) Your coach is definitely old school, (2) your daughter needs to be me aware of what she needs to do for training and talk about that with her coach, and (3) your daughter is going through a classic case of inappropriate training as well as over-training.

To give you an example, even during the peak of my season, my sprinters and mid-distance sprinters only go an average of 2750 - 3250 yards per hour, and that is a very tough day for them because almost all of their workouts are 90 - 95% intensity (minus the aerobic development - endurance - phase of the season). So, my "staple sets" for my mid-distance sprinters revolve around max VO2 and lactate tolerance.

Her coach is organizing all of those main sets as a distance swimmer would train - I am really hoping that those sets aren't for the entire group of swimmers. Either way, your daughter needs to have adequate recovery (active or otherwise) that will allow her to teach her body to self-regulate the heart rate in a short period of time as well as remove/recycle the significant amount of lactate that mid-distance swimmers produce and accumulate.

However, since the coach is most likely not a controlled variable for us, what we need to do is get your daughter to work on her recovery methods following practices. Here are a few suggestions:

1) stay a little longer for recovery and stretch out (dynamic and static stretches) immediately after a workout.
2) Practice deep breathing and self-relaxation techniques during her rest
3) Alter her own practice rates of intensity to hit more of the max VO2 times which will allow her more rest and teach her body to recover quicker.

The bottom line, though, is that your daughter is in a tough spot - and one that a lot of swimmers are in with regard to inappropriate training. Her body doesn't know how to react to the stress and strain of high intensity, high yardage swims which is why she is experiencing all of these issues (and if they are enhanced by an underlying medical condition then she has even more obstacles to overcome).

swim mom

Thanks for your answer. Yes, as you picked up on based on the workouts, her coach is known as a distance freestyle trainer. I feel pretty frustrated right now, partly because I don't understand a lot about the physiology behind training, and mostly because I agree that she is stuck in a difficult situation. I know coaches do not appreciate meddling parents, and I try very hard not to cross the line and interfere with the swimmer/coach relationship. But, in my opinion, for this line of authority to exist, the parents must be able to trust that the coach is doing what is best for the child, and I don't know if that is occurring here, even with the best of intentions. My daughter wants to be an elite swimmer more than anything, and has been given some idea that she has the potential, and will soon be competing on the national level. She has given up all other activities for swimming, NEVER has to be prompted to go to practice, and I have been told she has the best work ethic of anyone in her group. So, I feel like if she has that potential and is making that personal commitment, I have a right to protect her interests and make sure she is getting what she needs in the pool. Having said that, we come back to being stuck with a) a smaller team with limited resources, and b) politics that govern the coaching positions, and c) no other viable alternatives in our area. I am afraid that if my daughter were to try to talk to the coach about different training needs, he would see right through it and think I was putting words into her mouth. He has mentioned cutting back her yards, and has been careful to make sure she is recovering from her few swims at the state meet this past weekend, but I don't know whether it will make enough of a difference if there is no change in the nature of her training.

Sorry - I guess that was just venting, and I don't mean to make that an attack on coaches in general that will "get your back up." To follow up specifically, I have a few questions.

1. When you mention in #3 in your message about her altering her practice rates, do you mean that within those long sets she should swim at a faster rate? I read about max VO2 rates and am trying to understand it. In other words, she should try to get more a sprint/mid dist. workout out of it? I guess my concern would be that when it's a long set, for ex. the one you referenced, that is really inappropriate for mid-sprinters to maintain max VO2 levels over, it might just kill her to swim all of that fast, even though she'd have more rest b/c she'd get to the wall quicker. Or would you recommend that she try to keep the pace up for 2x times through, which would be more in the range of what you do with mid-distance sprinters, and then slow back down? I'm not sure the coach will understand or appreciate her self-selecting how to do it, but I guess we have to work on how to handle that.

2. Should a swimmer like her go fast even on kick/pull sets? It is her nature to go fairly hard on most everything, although she is good about slowing down for drill, which they don't do very much of. For ex., on kick sets, fairly often she and one boy like to race, maybe kicking 50s in about 32 sec. while everyone else cruises in and barely makes the interval. Or on pull sets, she doesn't sprint, but she likes to work her arms hard, and often laps many of the others on a 300 or 400. If we are worried about overtraining and too many yards, should she be taking it easier on these, or is this another opportunity for her to get some sprint in?

3. When she can tell ( and she CAN tell)she is not recovering well, whether from a meet or from an extended amount of distance, excess-yard practices, how should she handle it? Should she tell the coach she needs to take a day or two off, or just greatly slow down her pace and ask to get out early, or try to push through it on the harder sets and really take it easy on the others? other suggestions?

Thanks so much for your time!

texasaggies

What is odd about this all for me is that it appears after a specific meet, at the end of the season. How much of a taper do they go through? Do you see any signs of it coming on before the meet?
And Andy, why do you think a meet sets off the fatigue, rather than just a gradual buildup?